Fall on Your Knees
Why don’t more Presbyterians who claim to follow the Regulative Principle kneel in prayer? Why don’t we raise our hands in prayer?
Rev. Dr. Robert S. Rayburn has some cogent Biblical and practical reasons to do so .
Since most Presbyterians don’t kneel or raise hands, I’m genuinely curious to hear if any of our readers have a response to his study.
I’m assuming those in the Reformed world who follow contemporary trends will have no objection to anyone kneeling, raising hands, or doing anything else which expresses a true spirit of worship, while those who follow the Regulative Principle will have some NT verse which tells us which posture to adopt in prayer.
And, in order to offend everyone equally, why don’t Anglicans raise their hands in prayer? (I assume trendy Anglicans do, but my experience has been limited to continuing churches which simply kneel or stand.)
And, do Roman Catholics (traditional ones) and the Orthodox (are there trendy ones?)raise their hands? Of course, these bodies may appeal to Tradition, but what about Apostolic Tradition (like 1 Timothy 2:8)?
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Hi Gregory…I’ve taught on kneeling and hand-rasing twice in the last year-and-a-half at the Oceanside URC as a way of thinking through the issues and priming the pump. Of course, afterwards, some said “What are we waiting for” while others said “No way!”
I think it’ll take us as a consistory (pastors and elders) discussing and adopting these as part of our lilturgy (kneel for confession/raise hands for the doxology). For us to kneel, though, we’d need to spend a lot of money as well as convince the Chapel we rent to allow us to install kneelers…unless you know of a place to buy long pillows.
We have kneelers in our PCA church, and kneeling hasn’t really been an issue for people, but hand-raising has. I raise my hands when we sing a doxology (such as the Gloria in excelsis or the Gloria Patri), as well as when we sing “Hosanna in the highest”, and at other ascriptions of praise during the liturgy, but as I look out on the congregation, only 2-3 worshipers are actually raising their hands as well.
I have too much Presbyterian in me to force anyone to raise their hands (that whole “liberty of conscience” thing), but I really wish more people would WANT to raise their hands in praise.
I thought Dr. Rayburn’s works was very well done. I do not disagree with it. I am a minister in the RCUS, and we do not have a policy that all churches must follow, but at our Classis and Synod meetings we stand for prayer. Many of our churches, but not all, follow this practice. However, for discussion’s sake, I would like to take up your challenge about the Regulative Principle and prayer.
1. I do not think Dr. Rayburn establishes that posture in prayer is an element of worship, which is all the RPW addresses. It seems logical that the posture, especially since we see different postures allowed (I do think prostrate oneself is usually different than kneeling – and it is hands on the ground not in the air), is a circumstance of worship, while the element is prayer. If it is a circumstance, then any church would be at liberty to do as they wished even according to the RPW.
2. Something are good, but set aside when they become confusing or misused. The Brazen Serpent was smashed when it became an idol, and the temple was destroyed when it was misused (once again later when Christ fulfilled it). Dr. Rayburn admits kneeling is a sign of submission and homage, even worship. The abuse of kneeling by the Roman church has made it a confusing thing. Following the example of setting aside appropriate things when they are misused, perhaps a case could be made to set aside kneeling in prayer during church lest one mistake its meaning.
3. I believe the issue is a corporate one. If one person stands, two others kneel, and three people raise their hands then it seems a line has been crossed. In worship things should be done as a body together. Sunday service may not be the best time to individually express your attitude through a body position differing from the rest of the body. It becomes a distraction and attention is drawn to the person, and not to God. These positions are allowable when practiced corporately, but not to be done on an individual basis (while in a corporate setting).
I think those are some responses to Dr. Rayburn, and maybe a Regulative Principle response. I am interested to hear what you have to say.
Gentlemen:
Thanks for responding. I don’t want to die on this hill, but I do think the discussion brings out some interesting assumptions, both hermeneutical and cultural.
In the interests of full disclosure, the local churches I’m part of (CREC) kneel during the corporate confession of sin (without kneelers, and we’ve knelt on some hard floors!), sit in pews during the corporate prayer, and stand with hands raised to sing the Gloria Patri at the end of the service. I admit that this is a bit schizophrenic. Why stand with hands raised for only one part of the service? As Rayburn notes, sitting in pews in the one posture we DON’T see in Scripture! But, we make haste slowly …
I’ll post later on what raising hands does psychologically, at least for me, but let me try to respond to Lee.
1) I agree that posture is not the esse of prayer, and thus not an “element”. But, what I’m asking is whether certain postures contribute to the bene esse of prayer. Why is our default mode sitting (or hunching over) in the pew? Why don’t we seek to be broadly Biblical in our posture?
2) I’m afraid the “different-than-Rome” argument tires me. This is, in my opinion, overused in our circles. Do we abandon marriage because Rome perverted sexuality? Do we abandon wine in communion because that’s what RC’s do? Do we abandon the Creeds, or the Lord’s Prayer? I really don’t think that’s our temptation. If we did have RC’s coming into the Reformed church, then we should teach them patiently. But, the fact that we’re not kneeling to anything visible sets us apart significantly. Idolatry (as with the Bronze Serpent) is a different matter. Throw out the icons and the crucifixes, by all means! This is also why we shouldn’t kneel to receive communion. Perhaps that’s the bottom line in separating us from the Western catholic tradition. By the way, I find it ironic that Anglicans, who make much of preserving “ancient worship” kneel at communion, which was actually a medieval innovation
We all pick and choose our traditions.
3) I agree completley with you here. Corporate worship should be just that! We raise our hands to pray at home, but we sit and hunch along with the rest of the church.
Thanks, Lee, for interacting here. I appreciate the irenic tone, even though we probably have some differences.
Boy, am I tired of being part of a tradition that thinks it has to study and discuss everything to death before doing it. I’m tired of feeling like I’m in a sect.
In the call to worship during a recent service at my (PCA) church, the imperatives uttered by the pastor before a sitting congregation included the following (and in this order):
1. Let us bow.
2. Let us kneel.
3. Please stand.
Only the third got a response. Everybody stood, immediately. Now if you want evidence of the dyfunctionality and semi-gnosticism of our tradition, here it is: It’s not just that nobody bowed or knelt, though the commands were read from Scripture; it’s that the disconnect between what we were told to do and what we actually did, didn’t even register with us. We sat there. Without even thinking, we knew that the pastor didn’t really mean it.
It does not take money to kneel. Plenty of Orthodox kneel without kneelers, some of them on hardwood floors.
Do the Orthodox raise their hands? The clergy certainly do. The only time I’ve noticed laypeople doing it was when they were on their knees singing Ps 141: “Let … the lifting up of my hands [be] as the evening sacrifice.”
I think as part of the Presbyterian Church USA , that it is time that we have kneelers back in the church!
The bible says that one day we will all bow before him…every knee shall bow and tongue confess”. Come on folks..do you really think that when Moses was in the presence of God (the burning bush) had there been a seat there he would of sat down instead of falling on his face?
Sadly it seems that we have a disconnect with being reverent. Sitting down does not have the same implication that kneeling has. Kneeling shows and depicts submission to the Lord!
I hope and pray we all get back on the right track. I say we need to return to the Liturgy as depicted by John Calvin’s order to worship and the real reformed liturgy.
Many puritan presbyterians tried to take away much of our liturgy and beauty all in the name of simplicity and austerity. Its time to reclaim this back in the name of the one true and everlasting God. In his most Holy Name we pray….Amen
To respond to Paul to clarify the point about Orthodox practice (I am Orthodox and happened across this website), Orthodox do not normally raise their hands in prayer nowadays. It was always part of Orthodox tradition that laymen raised their hands in the Liturgy when the priest does so (Orthodox have always put a stronger emphasis on the con-celebration of the congregation - hence the standing). The priest continues to raise his hands during certain prayers today, but laymen rarely do now and as Paul points out, during explicit references to the raising of hands. The only exception are Coptic Orthodox who continue to raise their hands during the Liturgy and it is beautiful to see.
On kneeling, kneeling is less common among Orthodox, though again it is part of the tradition. Kneeling prayers take place after Pentecost (kneeling and prostrating is forbidden between Pascha (Easter) and Pentecost because of the joy of the season). The only other example I know of is during absolution at Confession. Other kneeling practices are pretty localised, mostly Slavic and pretty certainly thought to be through Jesuit missionary influence on the Churches in the Balkans and Russia where other more noticeably Western practices (such as polyphonic and harmonised singing) arose.
The default Orthodox position in worship is standing, facing East. The notion is that of participation and con-celebration, but particularly as many go to church only on Sunday or Great Feasts, an affirmation of the Resurrection (celebrated much more explicitly in Orthodox practice) and of the feast. Greek churches more recently, and often because they take over disused churches in Europe, have a habit of introducing pews. This is pretty alien to orthodox worship and has changed liturgical practice completely during Lent where prostration used to be common, but now only occurs in the Slavic tradition and in more traditional Greek churches.
Prostration is more common than kneeling. Standing and prostrating being the most common positions except in more liberalised parishes where tradition has been forgotten. Bending the knee for us is therefore mostly prostration as befits the word (proskynein).
From the point of view of tradition, there is not really a need to reference the Scriptures in Orthodox practice - the Scriptures are part of the Tradition (a very important one) and not the other way round. The liturgy we use is very explicitly rooted in Scripture, but the liturgical tradition takes its primary form from worship in the ancient Temple. It was part of the tradition of the whole church and continues as an accepted oral tradition. While references from Scripture support the early worship of the church as being fundamentally similar to now, there is no explicit need to refer back to scripture for justification. Justification of practice through scripture is a more Western tradition arising out the Reformation and the arguments that took place then about the original church and what it believed.
Hope that contributes.